Restoring Pleasure & Somatic Healing with Rahi Chun

In this episode, Melissa has the absolute privilege and honor of speaking with Rahi Chun, a somatic sex educator, sexological body worker, and genital de-armoring specialist.

Rahi and Melissa dive deep into the research and common experience of women who feel numb, disconnected, or lack desire internally. They discuss how somatic sex education and de-armoring work to restore more pleasure, sensation, and orgasm.

In this powerful conversation, you will explore:

• The Healing Power of Sensation: Why talk therapy alone may not be enough. If a rupture affects the body, it needs to be repaired through the body, as the body remembers everything. Rahi shares how somatic work helps repair ruptures that cannot be reached through talking.
• De-Armoring and Trauma: How Rahi’s work can unlock sensations and restore pleasure, even for those who have experienced significant trauma or years of numbness and pain.
• The Clitoral Stimulation Debate: They discuss studies that suggest a large percentage of women prefer clitoral stimulation and how this information might be deceiving if it doesn’t account for trauma and numbness in the intravaginal space.
• The Truth About Vibrators: Rahi shares his research on vibrator use, confirming that extensive use leads to short-term desensitization, but not long-term. They discuss the challenge of relying on a toy that cannot be replicated by a human partner.
• The Somatic Healing Process: Learn about Rahi’s comprehensive approach, including downregulating the nervous system, neuro-affective touch, full-body active consent, genital mapping, and the de-armoring process itself, which focuses on letting go of unmetabolized emotions.
• Homework for Deepening Connection: Rahi stresses the importance of prioritizing the intimate relationship with your own body, offering practices like vaginal steaming combined with castor oil scar tissue remediation to increase blood flow and restore sensation.

Tune in for a fascinating and vital conversation on restoring connection, sensation, and pleasure in your body.

About the Guest:

Rahi Chun is a somatic sex educator and genital de-armoring specialist dedicated to helping people reclaim and expand pleasure. Learn more about his signature course, The Three Keys to Genital Dearmoring for Reclaiming and Expanding Pleasure, at RahiChun.com.

Links & Resources:

Rahi Chun’s Course: Three Keys to Genital Dearmoring

Transcript

Rahi (00:00)
We know that clitoris is the only part of the human anatomy that’s designed nothing for strictly pleasure. And so people rely on that. So your point is a really excellent one is like how many people in these studies are numb, armored, have not resolved the trauma intra-vaginally and thus prefer the external stimulation at their vulva or clitoris and rely on that.

Melissa D. (00:27)
Right.

Rahi (00:28)
and

over years or decades, that’s their go-to. We don’t know who the sample size is. And so it’s really kind of ⁓ deceiving or it’s information that doesn’t provide the full picture.

Melissa D. (00:39)
Right.

Melissa D. (00:59)
Welcome back to the Body Joy After Office Hours podcast, where I have the absolute privilege and honor to speak to who I would consider a mentor, ⁓ Rahi Chun. He is a somatic sex educator, sexological body worker, and the genital de-armoring specialist, in my opinion. He is the person to go

In our conversation, Rahi and I get into the research and the common experience of women who feel numb, lack of desire, and disconnected internally. And we also discuss how we personally work to restore more pleasure, more sensation, and more orgasm. So you definitely want to stick around and listen to this conversation. We get into the taboo around vibrators.

and if you are someone that is reliant only on clitoral stimulation, you might want to look into this. So I hope you enjoy the conversation.

Melissa D. (01:59)
welcome. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to be here.

Rahi (02:03)
Well, Melissa, it’s such a luscious invitation coming from you. How could I resist?

Melissa D. (02:09)
I love how we have this side joke of, know, I’m known as Melissa Mango and you’re known as Rahi Cantaloupe and our texting. I know, right? Actually, that’s a combination I have not tried. OK. It’s questionable.

Rahi (02:17)
That’s right. That’s right. What can be better than mango and cantaloupe together?

Yes, yes.

It is questionable. It is questionable. I just had a salad with persimmons. That’s a great combo.

Melissa D. (02:35)
Uh-huh.

Especially now with the fall. Yeah, wonderful. So speaking of fruit, ⁓ Rahi you specialize, you’re kind of one of the, I would say the main specialists around vaginal dearmoring and sexological bodywork. And I’m wondering how this work found you and maybe you wanna get into

Rahi (02:40)
⁓ delish. Delish, delish. Yes.

Mmm.

Melissa D. (03:04)
How would you define what dearmoring actually means for our listeners?

Rahi (03:09)
Sure, sure. ⁓ Thanks for the question. ⁓ You know, the image that’s coming to me as you ask that question is the very first residential inner pelvic release workshop that I did. It was through Margo Anon’s Sky Dancing Tantra. This was 20 something years ago. And I went alone and I was paired up with another participant who was probably in her late 50s and she was a survivor of incest. And so she had

pretty much pain and numbness around the vulva and intravaginal space. And through a series of ⁓ applying breath, movement sounding presence, feeling into the emotions that were stored in the tissues and fascia of her genitalia and having a space to discharge that as we were soul gazing and engaging in different kinds of breath. By the end of that week, Melissa,

she was feeling sensations she had never felt before. And so that, it blew my mind. I was like, why doesn’t everyone know about this? And so it just kind of, it put me on a ⁓ track of wanting to learn everything I could about it, which took me to Thailand to learn the Taoist way of inner pelvic release and increasing blood flow. I studied different psychosomatic approaches that…

Melissa D. (04:10)
Beautiful. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

Rahi (04:33)
focused on developmental psychology and how our childhood imprints in our pelvis ⁓ live and inform our adult intimacy patterns. And so just kind of over the years, it kind of found me really. I just kind of followed my curiosity and kind of this puzzle started forming. ⁓ so I started teaching it and it’s just been a joy.

Melissa D. (04:47)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm, that’s incredible. I, you know, I was originally inspired to have this conversation with you. I mean, because I adore you and your work. But there was a post that you shared with and it came like there was a couple of weeks where some things would kind of pop up at my feed. So it was one of your articles that ⁓ was about these studies and how a large percentage of women.

Rahi (05:11)
Yes.

Yes.

Melissa D. (05:27)
actually don’t want to be penetrated. They prefer clitoral stimulation and how there was another study that then talked about, well, since they don’t want any penetration, let’s stick to external stuff alone. so I want to talk to you a little bit about what might be missing in some of these studies, because for me, I’m just noticing that in the world of sex education, again, that’s a huge umbrella.

Rahi (05:41)
Hmm.

Yes.

Melissa D. (05:55)
there seems to be some educators that, good willing, or is that the word I’m looking for? Meaning, good meaning. That they mean well, well-intentioned, yes. And so we want to give permission for people to have their experience, and if they don’t enjoy something, don’t worry about it. And there’s a way that if internal stimulation, whether it’s a finger or…

Rahi (06:01)
Mm hmm. Sure. Like, yes, well intentioned. Yes.

Melissa D. (06:21)
You something else isn’t really working for you there is a way to awaken and maybe make it possible to where it can be pleasurable and so there seems to be this if you don’t like it and don’t enjoy it and you’re numb and you just want to go external than just go that route and then also there’s not a lot of information I’m noticing that it you know.

Rahi (06:37)
Hmm. Hmm.

Melissa D. (06:45)
Clitoral stimulation doesn’t mean just the head of the clitoris. You can actually access the clitoral internally. So I want to open up all of those articles and research papers and just get right into it on your experience on where and how your work comes in and how we can maybe open up the conversation for other women and people that are partnered with women that are experiencing maybe no pleasure or numbness and what the possibilities might be.

Rahi (06:48)
Hmm.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes, I love it, I love it. So the studies that you’re referring to, Melissa, I agree, I look at these studies that are all published in very well-reputed, ⁓ the Journal of Sexual Medicine, the Journal of Sexual Studies, and when they print their byline, it’s something like, we know from studies that 70 % of women experience orgasms clitorally, right? And so,

you know, my mind goes to, because I’ve had clients, you know, we’ve all seen clients where, ⁓ you know, if they had a very traumatic fingering experience, let’s say when they were young, then there’s an association that gets wired with manual touch and that trauma from when they were, you know, younger that can elicit a guarding, an unconscious guarding in the intravational space. And so,

Melissa D. (07:53)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rahi (08:07)
We know that clitoris is the only part of the human anatomy that’s designed nothing for strictly pleasure. And so people rely on that. So your point is a really excellent one is like how many people in these studies are numb, armored, have not resolved the trauma intra-vaginally and thus prefer the external stimulation at their vulva or clitoris and rely on that.

Melissa D. (08:34)
Right.

Rahi (08:34)
and

over years or decades, that’s their go-to. We don’t know who the sample size is. And so it’s really kind of ⁓ deceiving or it’s information that doesn’t provide the full picture.

Melissa D. (08:46)
Right.

Right. Wonderful. Would you then walk us through an arc or a series? Let’s say you have a client that’s interested and curious. Maybe there’s some trauma that they know about. Maybe they’re just curious, like what else may be possible in this dearmoring process? Yeah. What does that arc look like for someone that wants to potentially open up possibility of sensation and more pleasure?

Rahi (09:16)
Mm. Mm.

Melissa D. (09:24)
internally specifically.

Rahi (09:26)
Yeah, that’s a great question. ⁓ you know, as we know, every client has a very, very unique set of circumstances and history and trauma. ⁓ you know, it really comes down to their body’s sense of safety with touch. And it’s different for everyone. So, ⁓ you know, the name of the game is really putting their body in charge in the driver’s seat.

of what their body is experiencing in regards to touch, in regards to where their body wants to explore touch and how. So in answer to your question, Melissa, you know, the first step is really down regulating the nervous system so that we can get an accurate assessment of their body map and their genital map. ⁓ So I use a modality called neuro-effective touch that really drops the body in to be

Melissa D. (10:20)
Ooh.

Rahi (10:21)
Yeah, to be receptive to touch sensations.

Melissa D. (10:24)
⁓ I don’t know if I’ve experienced that specifically. I’m curious how that meets the sexological bodywork approach.

Rahi (10:28)
Cool.

Yes,

yes. Well, so neuro-effective touch, it’s on a massage table and the client is fully clothed and we’re attuning as a team, bringing support to different parts of the body that are open to receiving and support could come in the form of hands, ⁓ heated pillows, blankets. Essentially, the client feels like they’re cocooned in a nest and in that ⁓ any

chronic guarding patterns will start to show up. ⁓ So we address that. ⁓ And then I do something called full body active consent, which is really a type of bossy massage ⁓ where the client is directing the kinds and quality of touch their body is wanting to receive ⁓ with a special focus on the 11 aeraginous zones of the body. Because we want to get an inventory of what parts of the body are receptive.

Melissa D. (11:04)
Hmm.

Rahi (11:32)
⁓ to what kind of touch and stimulus. And then if and only if the client feels safe and wants to explore those principles with the pelvis and genitalia, we first do a process called genital mapping to get a lay of the land of the areas of numbness, pleasure, ⁓ pain, discomfort, boredom, ⁓ and then we move into the dearmoring process when the client is ready to address

you know, really the unmetabolized emotions that are keeping that armor in place.

Melissa D. (12:05)
Hmm. So this is probably at least like you just shared three sessions. It’s a very slow process and I love this approach. This is what got me interested in the work too is that we can sit in a counseling office and we can sit with our friends or a skilled therapist and that could be beautiful and something else gets online or something else gets approached that ⁓

Rahi (12:11)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Melissa D. (12:34)
through actual sensation that you may not be able to reach this through talking. Yeah.

Rahi (12:39)
Yes, the body

remembers everything. so, know, mean, talking, I mean, talk therapy has its value and its place, particularly around metabolizing emotions and really having a cognitive understanding of a past trauma and, you know, what was missing and, you know, et cetera. But when, you know, to repair a rupture somatically, ⁓

Melissa D. (12:42)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Rahi (13:07)
I mean, if there’s been a rupture that affects the body, needs to be repaired through the body.

Melissa D. (13:12)
Mm-hmm. And I imagine some of your clients come in and they’re not always aware, but maybe they are about the list of ruptures. Yeah.

Rahi (13:19)
my gosh, Melissa, I’ve had,

yeah, I mean, I’ve had clients where, ⁓ you know, I had one client who was prostituted as a child and she blocked out all of those memories. now, yeah, yeah. And now she’s like, you know, 40 years old. She has, ⁓ she’s in a loving relationship, a great house business with her own kids. And now there’s enough resource in her life to address.

Melissa D. (13:30)
Wow.

Rahi (13:48)
that past trauma. So memories like that can just automatically come back to someone on the massage table when they’re touched into, into the tissues and places that are storing those memories. Yeah, yeah.

Melissa D. (14:02)
Mm hmm. Yeah,

I had something. I’m remembering this when I was working with Kauffman and captain at the school in Canada. We had to practice a certain something with another student and I was receiving touch and I was fully clothed. And I remember the other student kind of came in and was at that time I was like, wait, hold on.

Can we do something where I choose when your hands come towards me and then also just kind of fling them away? And we just did that over and over and it was so it was something that just kind of came to me just sitting there. And I’ve offered that to some students of like getting them into a place of power, whether it’s using their voice or using their bodies, you know, where they can actually decide, you know, if touch is going to happen and you slow everything down. ⁓

Rahi (14:40)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Melissa D. (14:56)
and create that choice in the body. It

Rahi (14:57)
Hmm. Yeah.

Melissa D. (14:59)
gives me goosebumps when I talk about it because it was something that just kind of came to me and I was like, wow, can you do this with me? And I wouldn’t have been able to find that if I was just, I imagine I wouldn’t be able to if I was just talking to a therapist about it. Yeah.

Rahi (15:07)
Yeah, yeah.

Totally, totally. So what

you’re speaking to has many important points. Like one, the body is infinitely wise. And I believe if we provide a safe space, it knows what it wants. But the other thing you’re sharing is like, know, like Peter Levine, who created a body of work called Somatic Experiencing, always talks about the interrupted defense response. So like, if I’m being mugged, my instinct is to punch the person, but

Melissa D. (15:23)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rahi (15:43)
because they’ve got a knife or maybe they’re holding me back, that instinct is being interrupted. And what you just shared about like tossing someone’s touch away, know, somewhere in your body, you know, instinctive desire, there may have been that impulse to do so, but it didn’t feel safe to at the time. So you’re completing, you’re completing that somatic motion. And by doing so, like freeing up that energy that wanted to do that, you know, however long ago that might’ve been.

Melissa D. (15:50)
Mm-hmm.

Right?

Yeah.

Mm Yeah, I had many experiences, you just kind of freezing or fawning when I was receiving touch from, you know, all kinds of different people that I didn’t actually want. So it was nice to like do that over and over again in a a space with another practitioner that I could talk to and and go through that process. ⁓ Yeah, I’m curious, what are some of the ways that you notice the nervous system kind of come back online?

Rahi (16:18)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Melissa D. (16:43)
when sensation and pleasure starts to come back in. Do you want to share a little bit about that? What that may look like?

Rahi (16:50)
Yeah, I mean, this is where ⁓ this has happened a number of times. ⁓ When I facilitate near effective touch, again, the client is fully clothed and it’s on the table. What we learn in near effective touch is that when there are things brought to the backside of the body, a hand, a pillow, ⁓ presence, then that part feels supported. When things are placed on front and the front of the body,

And this answers your question, is oftentimes if I know a client has been sexually violated, I will bring a weighted square and cover their pelvis. And when something is covering the front of the body, the body takes that as protection. And so when it knows that there is a protective barrier there, its musculature can relax because its musculature doesn’t have to be in that chronic protective mode.

Melissa D. (17:36)
Mm-hmm.

Rahi (17:49)
And so often when that protection comes over someone’s pelvis and they’re lying on the massage table, the sexual energy starts to flow and they start to feel, whether it’s arousal or turn on or just sensation that they’re not used to.

Melissa D. (18:07)
Interesting. just having the protective layer or the it sounds like a weighted blanket and then receiving the kind of touch that they’re wanting on the rest of their body. You’re noticing like the whole pelvic begin to pelvic area begin to come online.

Rahi (18:13)
Yes.

It’s like, come online. Yes, exactly.

It’s almost like synapses that didn’t feel safe enough because they were in chronic guard mode. know, it’s like the synapses start to connect again. Yeah, yeah. But then, I mean, the more kind of, ⁓ you know, direct, I mean, when we’re doing, when we’re dearmoring the intro vaginal space, ⁓ you know,

Melissa D. (18:31)
Yeah.

Wow, beautiful.

And I imagine that

comes later, like, you know, putting the square or doing this type of touch is kind of this important prep work. And then maybe a couple sessions in if it feels appropriate and the client wants it, then you can move to even external vulva touch and then going more internal. Yeah, sure. Sure. that.

Rahi (18:57)
Yes.

Yes,

sure. ⁓ Yeah, it’s amazing what memories rise up to the surface. ⁓ know, everything from like, ⁓ DNCs that the client blocked out of their memory because they were Catholic and young and kind of blocked that out, you will come back. And once those memories come back and there’s a safe space for the emotions from that experience,

Melissa D. (19:29)
Mm-hmm.

Rahi (19:37)
to be felt and expressed, it’s amazing what sensations come back. And I think one of the most common, like in tantric communities, there’s this big ⁓ emphasis on sacred spot massage, prostate massage for penis owners, ⁓ G-spot massage for vulva owners, it’s this crystallized tissue that’s known to hold past trauma. And so,

Melissa D. (19:42)
Yeah.

Right.

Rahi (20:07)
Sometimes all it takes is a little bit of castor oil and presence there at the G spot for those tissues to start to melt and absorb the properties of the castor seed and blood to flow. And then you start to feel this pulse at the finger. And then all of a sudden they’re like, wait a minute, I’m feeling like, what is that? And then just following the rhythm of that pulse. So I’m just supporting where the energy wants to expand.

Melissa D. (20:23)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Rahi (20:36)
and all of a sudden they’re feeling sensations they’ve never felt before.

Melissa D. (20:40)
Wow. Yeah, I remember years ago at Dow Garden, was hearing Montauk Chia speak. think this was in a tantra container that he was doing a Tao Tantric thing. And he said, you know, be careful or just be mindful because when you’re touching a woman internally, especially on her G-spot, you are reaching into a box of photographs. And so you never know what memory or what experience may flush up. And so having a lot of

presence and care there. Which I’m just reminded of a fun story if you want to hear it. My partner at the time and I had hosted this voyeur event. And so the voyeur event was all very erotic and playful and it was where people could sit in a circle, this big theater, and we could witness real intimacy happening. It wasn’t supposed to be performative. It was supposed to be like, ooh.

Rahi (21:11)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Mmm, mmm.

Melissa D. (21:39)
What do these people want to share while we’re watching? And it was wonderful. But we were watching a I don’t want to say vaginal fisting. was more about these two lovers, these two women. But one of them was kind of, you know, putting her whole hand in. But it was done in this like playful, sensual way. So both of us were like, wow, that looks really fun. And so when we got home, I want to say it was that night, but it was probably a few nights later. He really wanted experience. And so did I. But what ended up happening is we were

Rahi (21:42)
Mmm.

Hmm.

Wow.

Mm.

Melissa D. (22:09)
doing this playful thing. And then as he’s like inside, I just erupted into all this erupted into tears. And because he had done a training in a separate container, he was like, my gosh, he’s like slowed way down. He just kept his hands steady and was able to hold space for me without, you know, a whole lot of conversation, but just checking in with me and holding the space as I let.

Rahi (22:26)
Hmm.

Melissa D. (22:37)
You know, these waves of and in all the sessions that I’ve done, even a dearmoring session years ago, I had never reached this layer of release. So it lasted a good 30, 40 minutes, I would say, of like what start off is like, let’s try something sexy. wait, we’re we’re going into this very emotional like experience. But it was beautiful how it was held. And I didn’t have any memory specific that popped up, but lots of emotion.

Rahi (22:37)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Wow. Yeah.

Yeah.

⁓ huh.

Melissa D. (23:07)
that I wasn’t planning on. ⁓ I know, right?

Rahi (23:09)
Wow, what a gift. I mean, that’s a real gift.

I mean, clearly there was so much trust, which is really key. And thank goodness that he was trained to hold all of that energy release that was moving through you. I mean, that is just a blessing. And the point you make is really important. You don’t have to know the memories. Some people are chasing after, like wanting to be factually know.

Melissa D. (23:25)
Yeah.

Right.

Rahi (23:38)
who the person was and all of this, it’s not necessary. It’s really more about the release of that emotion.

Melissa D. (23:44)
Right. Yeah. And I even think about I’m so glad that I was able to tune into that and just allow it to come forward because maybe a younger part of myself would have been like, wait, we’re supposed to be sexy right now. What am I doing? Who knows? I just.

Rahi (23:54)
Yes.

Right, yeah, yeah, totally.

And if the trust wasn’t there between you and your partner at the time, then maybe there would have been embarrassment or I’m being too much or, you know, but, and then the release would have been interrupted. That’s fantastic. But you know, that’s the other, it’s important, it’s a great point to underscore. You never know when the body is ready.

Melissa D. (24:07)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, wonderful. ⁓

Right.

Rahi (24:30)
to

really metabolize a past experience. It could come at any moment. Mm-hmm.

Melissa D. (24:33)
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right.

Do you want to speak about some of the success stories? Of course, you don’t have to name or get really particular, but when you’re working with a client who is really ready to go into this work, what are some of the ⁓

Rahi (24:46)
Mm.

Melissa D. (24:58)
some of the ways this has really improved their connection to themselves or their relationship with their own body, ⁓ their intimacy. What are some big shifts that you’ve had the pleasure and honor of witnessing?

Rahi (25:00)
Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm.

Sure. Well, I’ll mention this because ⁓ I have a client coming in this afternoon from the East Coast. I mean, this is an extreme situation, but she was told, advised by her doctor to insert what’s called a vaginal mesh for a bladder prolapse, which wasn’t even that bad. I mean, you know, now we know there was a great Netflix documentary about it called The Bleeding Edge. We know that

Melissa D. (25:29)
Mm.

Rahi (25:40)
you know, all these companies come out with these products that they want, you know, surgeons and doctors to, you know, to employ onto their patients. Long story short, the ⁓ polypropylene mesh tore through her tissues and they intertwined with her vaginal nerves. It took her like eight surgeries to remove every piece of vaginal mesh. And then she was just left with what she calls a box.

Melissa D. (25:57)
Ouch.

Rahi (26:10)
It was two inches deep. She just felt nothing. yeah, so for like 10 years she had given up on having a sex life until she had a ⁓ sensual massage. And then she started feeling something and she said, I want to reclaim my sex life in my vagina. And then she found me. And in the beginning, there was very little sensation, but you know, the body is just a miracle.

Melissa D. (26:13)
Wow.

Rahi (26:40)
you know, when we give it the safe space, and with her, it was a lot of scar tissue remediation. It was like teasing the nerves back to life. And, you know, I mean, she lived on the East Coast, so she would fly, you know, probably three or four times a year. And over like a two-year period, she pretty much restored all of the sensation she had from before the surgeries. Yeah, yeah. And now she’s just like… ⁓

Melissa D. (26:49)
Mm-hmm.

That’s beautiful. Wow.

Rahi (27:09)
I mean, kind of, you know, she’s in her sixties and she just can’t get enough, you know? I mean, she’s, yes, yeah. So she’s flying in today, or I think she flew in this morning. She’s coming with a new boyfriend because they want to learn new tantric skills. ⁓

Melissa D. (27:14)
Yes.

Wonderful, so

you’re going to be seeing both of them in the studio. Wonderful. ⁓ that’s exciting. Okay.

Rahi (27:28)
Correct. In a couple of hours. Yeah. Yeah.

But you know, as you know, Melissa, it’s like every client is such a teacher and it’s just, you know, the human body is really magnificent. You know, I think it’s really a matter of the safety, relearning or learning for the first time for a lot of people what your body’s erogenous zones are capable of.

Melissa D. (27:44)
Mm-hmm. ⁓

Rahi (27:57)
and learning how to ask and direct your partner in a way where you’re actually getting what your body desires.

Melissa D. (28:04)
right, instead of enduring or, yeah.

Rahi (28:07)
Mm-hmm. So much

enduring. So much enduring and so much people pleasing and so much, you know, just we were never taught. You know, we were never taught to really advocate for our body. Yeah.

Melissa D. (28:16)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I’m curious ⁓ your thoughts on and maybe your experience with working with clients. There’s also this idea that if someone uses a vibrator, especially like a Hitachi, that it actually doesn’t support someone having the full range of experience. And so I’m just curious if you’ve worked with any women around that.

Rahi (28:33)
Mm. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah, so a couple of things. One, I don’t want to shame anyone who enjoys their vibrator. It’s great. ⁓ You know, I was, I forget, I don’t know where I heard this, but early on somewhere I heard that, ⁓ you know, extended vibrator use desensitizes the clitoral nerves over time. And I brought this to

⁓ the class that I teach, three keys to genital dearmoring, and someone challenged me on that. So I spent an afternoon researching all that, and I didn’t find any research that showed that extensive vibrator use leads to long-term desensitization. What studies show is it does lead to short-term desensitization.

⁓ Obviously a reliance on a toy can bring challenges when you’re with a human being who cannot replicate those sensations. ⁓ But those are kind of the downsides, those two things I would say. There’s short-term desensitization ⁓ and your body may start getting used to and liking

effects that cannot be replicated in the bedroom with a partner.

Melissa D. (30:11)
Yeah. And so if someone really wants to not saying that they have to get rid of their vibrators, because again, I don’t want to shame people, but ⁓ that’s probably the next thing that most women come to me for is like, I’m using this vibrator. It would be really nice to be able to experience pleasure in all these other ways. How do I get there? And that’s one of the things I teach and show them is how do we, you know, maybe lesson.

Rahi (30:32)
Hmm.

Melissa D. (30:38)
the vibrator, switch it up to something a little bit softer and then incorporate some of these other things. ⁓ I’m curious, what are some practices, if you’re working with a client and they’re coming into your studio, ⁓ what are some practices you send home with them that support the work that they’re doing with you in person?

Rahi (30:58)
Sure, sure, great question. ⁓ I’m a big fan of vaginal steaming and vaginal steaming… Yes, exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah. I love vaginal…

Melissa D. (31:05)
This is where you hover over a little basket of herbs. Okay, wonderful. I thought that was,

I didn’t know that that was actually something legitimate. So thank you.

Rahi (31:16)
yeah, yeah. So, ⁓ well, I would say to anyone who’s curious, your body will tell you. Do it yourself. because I had a client who had got a UTI the first time she did vaginal steaming at a Korean spa, so she’s very averse to it. And then I have other clients where so much sensation, intravaginal sensation gets restored. ⁓ But yeah, but it’s done in a very specific way. So I combine…

Melissa D. (31:40)
Wow.

Rahi (31:46)
vaginal steaming with scar tissue remediation. So I have clients take an organic tampon dipped in organic castor oil for hours, insert it intra-vaginally. ⁓ I mean, if there’s anal scar, can insert it intra-anally and sit over the steam. The steam has the effect of spreading those castor properties, castor seed properties throughout the tissues.

Melissa D. (32:13)
Mmm.

Rahi (32:13)
of the intravaginal

space, increasing blood flow, breaking up scar tissue, relaxing the pelvic floor muscles, and many clients report increased sensation returning as a result. Yeah.

Melissa D. (32:26)
Wow, I’ve never heard

of the dipping the tampon in the casserole oil and then inserting it. I’ve only just worked with it, you just with my hands.

Rahi (32:37)
Yeah, yeah, that was, ⁓ I had a client who had, ⁓ it was either cervical or uterine cancer. So she had radiation and her intravaginal tissues were dry and brittle. And that method of inserting, mean, once we had enough of an opening to be able to insert an organic castor oil dip tampon, which took many, many sessions.

Melissa D. (32:48)
wow.

Rahi (33:05)
that just sped everything up as far as making the tissue soft and supple and responsive. So yeah, I’m a big fan of that. And then combining it with the vaginal steaming, like, you know, it’s like 10X. Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa D. (33:19)
Wow, beautiful. What

is your experience or opinions on the spacers that some women use? The vaginal spacers. Is that what they’re called? Okay. Yes. Yeah.

Rahi (33:30)
Yeah, like the dilators. Yeah,

so I’ve had a number of clients over the years ⁓ who suffered from vaginismus and they often have gone the PT route and physical therapists often, and I think gynecologists also ⁓ recommend those increasing size dilators. ⁓

You know, I mean, I can understand the theory behind it because the tissue is pliable and malleable, but, ⁓ you know, nothing replaces the energy of human touch and human contact. And I think the, the downside of relying on those dilators is that ⁓ you’re kind of sticking a dilator inside of you without really attuning to.

any emotions that are coming up or the sensations that are coming up. It’s very kind of, ⁓ you know, not connected to your emotional experience, right? Or your felt sense of what that may be bringing up. And usually with vaginismus and other kinds of ⁓ responses where the body’s just trying to protect itself, there’s some event or past trauma or experience that

Melissa D. (34:33)
Right.

Mm-hmm.

Rahi (34:51)
It’s almost like the tissues are a space holder to remind the body. There’s some unmetabolized material here you need to look at, and dilators don’t really address that.

Melissa D. (34:59)
Yeah,

right. They’re just kind of sticking it in and not really making the connection there. Whereas like receiving touch and really presence and a slow massage or just holding could probably, yeah, really address that a lot easier.

Rahi (35:04)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, it’s like a ⁓ somatic repair to what was likely a somatic rupture. So going back to like, going to a talk therapist as opposed to a touch-based therapist, if the touch is what caused the rupture, then there needs to be a repair with that same element of touch.

Melissa D. (35:26)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah, I’ve had a couple clients come to me after visiting a PT and yeah, they’re like still having whatever kind of tight muscle tightness, whatever kind of stress happening. so yeah, getting them more connected to the emotional body.

Rahi (35:43)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah. And then you can really go to the root of what’s causing the vaginismus. I’ve had clients who’ve used dilators and they increase the size, but then when they stop, the tissues will go back to a smaller and smaller opening. Because it’s not really addressing the root issue that created the body’s sense of protection to begin with.

Melissa D. (36:17)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, beautiful.

Rahi (36:25)
Yeah, yeah. I want to hear from you, Melissa. I want to hear from you. Well, my gosh, I mean, you are one of those rare, like, for example, you’re on, you you’re part of the team for Back to the Body and for the other, it’s Counter. you, Himros, yeah, so you are seeing such a wide array of transformation, you know, of people who, you know,

Melissa D. (36:28)
What do you want to know? What do you want to know?

Uh-huh.

Hemorrhous, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Rahi (36:55)
have probably been starving for the quality of touch that only someone who’s as qualified and trained as you can provide. mean, the transformative relationship that people have with their own bodies that you get to witness, that you get to facilitate, must be mind blowing and you’re on both teams, which is so cool.

Melissa D. (37:15)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think I was one of the first practitioners with Back to the Body that actually worked with women that preferred to work with a female. They just hadn’t no one had ever asked. And so one person asked, Hey, can I I love your team, but can I work with a female? And Pamela was like, yes. So that was that was exciting and beautiful. And yeah, and I love the work because it’s not just me. It is a whole team.

Rahi (37:27)
Yes.

Mmm.

Melissa D. (37:49)
and there’s workshops, there’s the community all working together, and then, yes, you get to come into the studio and have your two hours a day of your very personalized sexological bodywork, somatic sex education session, but there’s a magic that happens when there’s an entire team supporting a small group of individuals going through a process together.

Rahi (37:49)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah, because you’re

kind of, I mean, you’re in the soup. They’re in the soup for the whole week. You’re all in the soup. It’s very different than just someone coming like every other week, because then they’re going back into, you know, the goldfish bowl where it caused all of these things.

Melissa D. (38:21)
Yeah

Yes.

Right. Yeah, there’s something beautiful and profound around immersions. It’s actually one of my favorite places to work. I imagine you do something similar, you know, rather so an entire day or an entire weekend or when when someone can really drop in and follow, you know, what’s unraveling and what’s being uncovered and explored in the body.

Rahi (38:38)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Melissa D. (38:54)
⁓ versus

like coming in for like one or two hours and going back to home, back to stress, back to whatever programs and coming back. It’s almost like we’re starting over again. So the deeper work, my preference, the deeper work, ⁓ immersions and or the retreats is a way to really like get things moving in a more powerful direction. Not to say that you can’t have ⁓ really…

Rahi (38:59)
Right.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Melissa D. (39:21)
profound things happen in those smaller windows, if that’s all you have. But that’s when I really bring in, OK, once you get home, these are the things that we’re going to nourish and support you as you’re going back into your regular life. Yeah.

Rahi (39:34)
⁓ Yeah,

yeah. And I want to ask you, you you’ve been with Back to the Body for a while now. I’m guessing that there’s a wide range of ⁓ arousal and pleasure accessibility and sensitivity that you witness. And I imagine you get to see how that evolves over the course of the week within one body.

Melissa D. (39:51)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Absolutely, yeah. ⁓

I also come in, it’s been a bit since I’ve done a retreat. They kind of keep me on the bench for when it’s time to come in, but I’m also a, what’s called side dish. So not necessarily a practitioner that works with the same group of women the whole weekend.

Rahi (40:10)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

⁓ I

see. Hmm.

Melissa D. (40:23)
but I’ll

come in and offer someone that wants to experience a Femdom experience or a sensual massage from a feminine. So something that they can just sign up for as an additional little yum yum and then I’ll teach workshops or lead the group through things and just be a part of the group. ⁓ that and the room service is the main places that I’ve worked. Yeah.

Rahi (40:28)
Yeah, cool.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm. That’s cool.

⁓ okay. Great. Great.

But you know, this goes back to your question that you posed at the top of the podcast, ⁓ Melissa, where, you know, like you’ve probably seen so many intravaginal spaces that start to come alive. And if they hadn’t had someone like you, you know, to facilitate that experience, they would go on years, maybe decades, not realizing what potential for pleasure there was inside of them.

Melissa D. (41:05)
Yeah.

Right.

Right, yeah, taking the time out of their day, dropping in, you know, the combination of the supportive environment, getting out of their normal go-tos, and then having this beautiful reserved time of touch and attention that is all around, you know, specifics of what they’re actually wanting. It’s really beautiful.

Rahi (41:30)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and

it is beautiful. But this really speaks to, you you asked about the homework I give clients and, you know, like it’s really up to each person to choose how they’re gonna prioritize their embodiment, their sensuality, their sexual pleasure, you know, because there’s a million different excuses you can, you you can make for how there’s not enough time, but.

Melissa D. (41:44)
Mm.

Yeah.

Rahi (42:04)
What are you choosing and what are you prioritizing in your life? And that’s something that I underscore with clients because you can come here and maybe your G-spot is awakened or your cervix is awakened. But if you just ignore it when you go back out into the real world, you need to keep deepening and keep… I mean, it’s an intimate relationship. Just in the same way, we need to prioritize space in our…

Melissa D. (42:08)
Yeah.

Rahi (42:33)
calendar for our intimate relationships. We need to do that with the intimate relationship with our own body as well.

Melissa D. (42:39)
Absolutely. Yeah, this is why I started doing those. ⁓ I have a background in hypnotherapy and so I used to create these little audio tracks. And then so when I got into this line of work, I thought, well, I can just guide somebody through, you know, because sometimes we need a little bit of guidance to explore, ⁓ you know, different intentions or different way of touch, you know, something, something to kind of

keep us on track and inspired and then eventually you can go off and kind of create your own rhythm. But the audios are beautiful because you can do them anytime, anywhere. It doesn’t have to be two hours. It can be even 30 minutes. My preference is 45 minutes or more. And it also kind of helps people drop in, which I mean, I even have trouble dropping in sometimes. And so being guided or having…

Rahi (43:21)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa D. (43:32)
you know, a friend or someone, you know, a women’s group or whatever, some level of accountability, whether it’s again, a coach or a group or something, or an audio track, something to kind of keep me ⁓ inspired. And so I know exactly what that’s like when clients get home and they have families or kids or a thriving business. And it’s like, go, go, go, go, go. It’s like, no, we have to give this to yourself too, because it.

Rahi (43:39)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Melissa D. (43:57)
adds to and it spills into the rest of your life with your creativity, the connection to your body, how much energy you have for your partner and your children and all of it. It’s all connected, right? Yeah.

Rahi (44:02)
Yes.

Yes, all of it. Yeah,

yeah, I would go as far as to say that it’s kind of like our central well, you know, that needs to be replenished and nourished and prioritized because as you said, everything spills from that center, you know, of embodiment and resource and agency.

Melissa D. (44:21)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I was just at a women’s retreat and I just kind of came in as a guest teacher and these women are like doing really powerful things in the world. Most of them are running companies, you know, have big families, etc. And it was a new concept to kind of sit still, OK, focus on them and then feel in their body. So we just did some very simple things that were mind blowing, you know, and then giving

Rahi (44:41)
Mm.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Isn’t that interesting?

Melissa D. (45:00)
Yeah, it’s like, wow, again, just there’s all kinds of things pulling our attention all day long. so, again, prioritizing that slowing down and feeding ourselves and really listening and really making a connection, especially to our grounding, our our sex, our bodies. Mm Yeah. Mm Because most women that I was talking to that weekend, it was like.

Rahi (45:06)
Totally. Totally.

Yes. Totally. Our pelvic floor. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it’s

Melissa D. (45:27)
We doing this exercise, kind of like this body scan, but we’re noticing like, where do you feel things? What’s maybe not online? That’s still great information. And so many women were like, it stops about here or it stops about at my belly button or whatever. And then giving them, you know, the power of just using their breath and even their own movement, you know, and really like taking their hands and using those as grounding tools. I mean, this was all so new to them. They’re like, I had no idea.

Rahi (45:36)
Mmm. Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm. Mmm.

Yes.

Yeah,

yeah. Well, it’s so important and so vital. And yeah, it’s reminding me of clients who are, know, leaders, kind of, you know, like CEOs and decision makers. And I feel like ⁓ there’s such a goal and results and driven agenda. ⁓ Yeah, I just kind of feel for their bodies that are being…

what’s the word like not paid attention to you know

Melissa D. (46:32)
And also most

people, at least the clients that I see in Austin, Texas, where we have a lot of people in tech and that are entrepreneurs and like doing big things, running big companies and they’re living from the neck up, which is a great way to run your business, right? But teaching them how to slow down and change over those hormones and not be in this ⁓ stress response.

Rahi (46:41)
Mm. Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Melissa D. (46:56)
with lot of cortisol and things, but teaching them the simple tools of breath and relaxation and making it more balanced and connecting with their bodies. Yeah, I’m very busy in Texas. Yeah.

Rahi (46:56)
Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I bet. bet.

Well, that’s good. That’s good. Thank God you’re there. Totally.

Melissa D. (47:13)
I right? So, Rahi,

before we wrap up our conversation, I get curious, ⁓ what are the things that you are personally exploring and learning in your own sensual practice? Or what are some things that you can share, I guess, to humanize? ⁓

Rahi (47:18)
Mm.

Hmm.

Hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, you know, ⁓ like you mentioned, ⁓ Dao Gardens, I mean, I’m a big fan of Master Chia and was introduced to the microcosmic orbit, you know, back before Dao Gardens, like in the 90s. And ⁓ I’ve never had a partner who was also curious about the conscious circulation of sexual energy.

Melissa D. (48:00)
Really?

Rahi (48:01)
And so,

yeah, I mean, it’s ironic. I was dating this. Yeah, yeah. Well, and so what’s really wonderful is I’m in a partnership now where my partner is practicing the microcosmic orbit herself. And so in our lovemaking, we’re bringing that into the space. And so, you know, not only is it…

Melissa D. (48:05)
This surprises me.

Hmm

Rahi (48:26)
⁓ cultivating energy within ourselves, but when we do it, whilst we’re lovemaking, it kind of opens a portal up for a different kind of energetic experience. And so, you know, we’re both very inspired and wanting to go as deep as we can with, you know, this conscious circulation of energy for, with the intention of expanding our consciousness together.

Melissa D. (48:38)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm. I love that. Was that a pretty easy thing to kind of click into when the two of you got into partnership?

Rahi (48:58)
Thank you.

Yeah, the, I mean, the lovely thing about, energetically, we were very aligned from the beginning. And it’s the kind of thing where, you know, I would put my hand on her hip and she would be like, my God, my hip wanted your hand right there. There’s some, you know, there’s some sort of thing where our bodies are communicating to each other energetically. And so dropping into…

Melissa D. (49:14)
Mm-hmm.

Rahi (49:32)
something like the microcosmic orbit was just kind of a natural like extension. Yeah.

Melissa D. (49:38)
Now, I remember, was it last year or the year before where I was in Santa Monica and you were recording the content for your couples? Yeah, do you go into the microcosmic orbit in that content?

Rahi (49:44)
Yeah. Yeah. That’s right.

Uh-huh. Yeah. So we

have a couple’s course called Divine Union for Lovers. And in it, in the advanced bonus section, we do introduce the microcosmic orbit. ⁓ You know, as you know, it requires ⁓ someone who, I mean, it’s easier once you’ve had some sort of meditation practice. So it’s in our bonus section. there’s so many exercises and practices in the ⁓ body of that course around

Melissa D. (49:58)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rahi (50:23)
sharing and sharing energy and expanding consciousness. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa D. (50:27)
Hmm. I love

that. you find do you know about the erotic blueprints? The fiber? Okay. Do you find that folks that are more energetic have just an easier time kind of rolling with and learning the microcosmic orbit, especially when you’re with another person? Have you noticed? Yeah, I’ve noticed that. I’m like, I have a lot of clients that are more geared, more sexual, and they’re like,

Rahi (50:47)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Right, totally, totally, totally. Yeah, yeah, there are a lot of folks like that. ⁓ Yeah, because they need it, they need like the felt literal experience, right? And it’s a much more subtle, you know, the energetic is a lot more subtle and so arousing when you can drop into that field.

Melissa D. (50:56)
I’m struggling, I don’t know. I can’t track this in my body. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I find that like adding a cock stroke helps. It’s like, okay, you feel that? Great. ⁓ Yeah.

Rahi (51:21)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know,

that’s a great point in sharing that like whatever bridge can help, you know, you, your lover, your clients get to, you know, like if someone’s sexual, then a cock stroke will ⁓ can be the bridge to their feeling, their their energetic. Yeah.

Melissa D. (51:29)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

That’s so beautiful. ⁓ Yeah. Well, I appreciate you taking the time out and dropping in with us today. ⁓ Is there anything that you want to share that may be coming up that listeners may be interested? I know you’ve got a pretty in-depth dearmoring course coming up that I’ve been wanting to hop in for about two years now. Do you want to share with us about that?

Rahi (51:45)
Thank you, thank you.

Yes. ⁓ sure.

Yeah. ⁓ The signature course that I offer is called The Three Keys to Genital Dearmoring for Reclaiming and Expanding Pleasure. ⁓ It’s yeah, it’s really, I mean, I love it. This is this will be the fifth cohort. ⁓ It’s a blend of professional practitioners and laypeople who just want to understand why their bodies are responding in the ways that they are.

Melissa D. (52:15)
Mmm.

Rahi (52:31)
at whatever level of sensitivity and arousal that you have. it’s a wonderful, like, you know, because I’ve studied dearmoring from four different schools, the Taoist, the Tantric, Psychosomatic, and Energetic, like, it’s, I’ve just curated kind of the best of everything to make it very practical. And so it comes with nine group learning Zoom calls. I have guest speakers come in that are all kind of experts in the field of genital dearmoring.

and a registration just opened. yeah, ⁓ yeah, if you go to RahiChen.com you can go under courses and look for the three keys and all the information will be there.

Melissa D. (53:04)
All right.

I love that and that’s all virtual. OK.

Rahi (53:15)
Yes, you can be anywhere in

the world. have quite a few. It’s like usually two thirds North America and like a one third ⁓ folks from Europe who tune in.

Melissa D. (53:25)
Mmm, I love that. All right, Rahi. Well, I’ll make sure to put all that information in the show notes. And again, thank you for sharing your knowledge, your wisdom. And I look forward to seeing you at some point.

Rahi (53:37)
Yeah, at some point, yeah,

I look forward to seeing you too. And I want to say, know, Melissa Mango, you are one of the bright stars in our field. And I feel like, yeah, you know, I mean, as I shared, like you’re on staff on these two amazing transformative experiences, you know, so you cover like the whole, gender, you know, whatever body you’re in. And here you are, like, you know, you’re just kind of like this portal for

being as you are.

Melissa D. (54:09)
Mmm, the title of my new book. And I’m kidding. Thank you so much, Rahi. That means a lot. Well, I look forward to sharing a cantaloupe mango salad with you at some point. We’re going to have to check that out. Yeah. All right. Good to see you. Take

Rahi (54:13)
That’s cool, I’d buy that.

For sure, for sure.

Absolutely, absolutely. I love it. Good to see you.